There’s no conspiracy
Posted on Monday, December 1, 2008 at 6:12pm
22 responses
I’m sorry that I haven’t blogged in a while. Last week was so busy, and I have been off work ill today 
( politicians do get ill too believe it or not!)
My blog has had more contributions on the yes vote than any of my other blog posts of late, and thanks to all who have contributed. I’m sure the debate will continue, especially when I attempt to set up a meeting in the New Year. I’ve had replies from a few politicians- no Labour ones as yet, although one Labour AM has indicated that he/she will react. Time will tell.
People are reading far too much in to this nevertheless. I don’t want to create rifts in Labour, I don’t want politicians or Plaid to lead the campaign, I just want to get something up and running.There really is no conspiracy theory!The discussion suggesting that this referendum is but a smokescreen for Welsh Independence is missng the point entirely. Let’s put the scaremongering aside for a moment, and let the people who want to see a positive outcome on a referendum on a parliament for Wales move forward- together.
On another note, today is National Aids awareness day. I’ve tabled a statement of opinion to mark the day, and will be asking AMs to wear red ribbons tomorrow at the National Assembly.
There is still a huge amount of stigma out there about those who suffer from HIV/ Aids, and there’s a lot more that we should be doing to combat this stigma.
I recently visited the Aids Trust Centre based in Swansea, whose clients told me of how they feel isolated in their own communities, and that sexual education in schools must be developed urgently. They also noted that it was hard for them to register with Dentists as there is still stigma about their illness- they are often refused treatment, or will only be seen at the end of the day when a Dentist can clean all the equipment thoughroughly after use. If this isn’t humiliating, I don’t know what is.
Ill be raising some of the issues above during business questions tomorrow, and with both the Education and Health Minister respectively.
Tomorrow we also have another meeting of the cross party group on eating disorders at 6pm. We will be receiving a presentation from Dove about its self esteem work in schools, an update on our meeting with the Minister, and we will be discussing ideas for an event to mark Eating Disorder Awareness Week in February 2009. I hope you can attend….
Bethan,
By calling anyone raising concerns about independence ‘scaremongering’, you are being a self fulfilling prophecy. Many are less than keen to ‘join’ your campaign when you dont see a full welsh parliament as your 1st choice for Wales’ constitutional status.
No accusations of conspiracy, just that you are not being honest with people.
Tell me why you prefer independence to a full welsh parliament?
Marcus- your party has signed up to campaign for a positive outcome to a parliament for wales. This is the reality of the situation. If you want to campaign against this due to your belief that plaid are deceiving the Welsh public on this matter then that is your decision to make. Why are you seeking to create tensions as opposed to working to progress this issue if you care so much about it?
Bethan
Why doesn’t Plaid simply start a “yes” campaign, with or without Labour? There’s nothing in the One Wales Agreement that prevents you from doing so.
@Marcus: the campaign isn’t about that, and whether Plaids ultimate aim is independence or not is irrelevant. We all (well, most of us) want a full Welsh Parliament delivering the best for Wales, amd that’s the debate Bethan’s campaign (amongst others), is calling for. Please stop muddying the waters, it’s not helpful.
Who is this Marcus – he is a serious grade of idiot if he thinks Bethan is being a “self-fulfilling prophecy”.
If this is the level of intellect in the Labour Party then we have to assume that they won’t be able to take part in a referendum campaign… mainly cos they can’t spell referendum.
I can’t understand why Labour would raise the question of independence if they genuinely support Scottish-style powers for Wales – and presumably they do, unless Scotland is somehow exceptional.
Many within Labour have not yet realised how to interact with the national question. If they are against independence, the logic would be to support a federal state with parliaments for England and Wales, as well as Scotland, with the Lords being replaced with an elected UK parliament. Furthermore, if they believe that public opinion is not in favour of independence, what do they have to fear from a referendum on full parliamentary powers?
@Seren: type his name into Google. It’s illuminating.
Bethan
I find it disturbing that dentists refuse to
see patients with HIV/Aids.
These people are in greater need of support than the rest of us.
But what I find even more disturbing is, that if they do see them, they wait until the end of the day, so they are able to thouroughly clean and sterelise their equipment. Does it mean they don’t clean them thouruoghly after other patients who may have other sorts of infections. Also I wonder do they change their gloves after each patient.
Indeed, bring up the a western mail story that was retracted a day later, bring up a job I was sacked for previously, very mature.
I support the yes campaign, I am merely telling you why people from other parties won’t support it.
I am not a member of a political party, I align myself with the centre left. ‘Your’ party means nothing.
The anon attacks are pathetic, leave your name, don’t hide. It’s a debate.
We seem to be getting a bit side tracked here. To achieve the goal of more powers a yes vote would need to be secured, that is far from done yet.
To do that many of the Labour supporters who some on these pages regard with such distaste will have to be won over. They make up half the population and will vote, yes or no not because you feel it is your divine right, but if you can explain to them tangible benefits i.e. better hospitals and schools etc.
Talk of Plaid starting their own campaign without Labour is rubbish as they simply do not have the support.
It was Labour on the back of massive popularity that got a yes vote in 1997 not Plaid.
“Many within Labour have not yet realised how to interact with the national question. If they are against independence, the logic would be to support a federal state with parliaments for England and Wales”
This is an interesting argument but one which, I believe, is fundamentally flawed. The British constitution is one which in its nature, is ‘ad hoc’, flexible and not necessarily logical.
I don’t think anyone would claim that the settlement is perfect, but its the one we’ve got and I think it would be much more sensible for those who desire more powers to demonstrate their ability to work with and within the current system. There is a real danger, I believe, that we risk turning the Welsh public off the assembly if we are seen to be concentrating on powers rather than the people at a time when jobs are being lost, households are struggling to pay the bills and the risk of repossesion looms large for so many.
Also I think some people would do well to remember that;
it was Labour who created a cabinet level Secretary of State for Wales.
It was Labour who established the Crowther/ Kilbrandon commission.
It was Labour who held two referendums on creating a Welsh Assembly.
It was Labour who devolved more powers with GOW act.
Not bad for a party which according to Charlie has ‘failed to interact’ with the national question. I think our record speaks for itself.
well craig is right in saying it was the newly elected labour govt of tony blair that brought about a referendum on wales having a assembly. But he seems to be unaware that originally Labour and ron davies’s plan was that a welsh assembly would be set up without a referendum – blair was panicked into staging a referendum by anti-devolutionists in the welsh labour party, like llew smith etc
Unfortunately the anti-devolutionists werent appeased by this backtracking by blair – they stil linked up with the tories and the jersey based millioniare julian hodges to try and kill the devolution project in wales off (just as many of the same people had done in 79)
But to suggest it was ‘labour’ that got the yes vote in 97 is completely wide of the mark! the 97 yes campaign was a genuinely broad based cross party campaign that saw members and supporters of labour, plaid and the lib dems – and people of no party at all – all making invaluable contributions in securing a narrow yes vote!
This being no thanks to leading labour figures like the aforementioned smith, denzil davies, alan williams and ray powell who all urged people to vote NO!
Meic – you are right of course, I should have said “Many within Labour have not yet realised how to interact with the national question *in these changed circumstances*”.
I was referring to the victory of the SNP and power-sharing with Plaid.
Who cares why their was a referendum, by the way I worked on the campaign did you?
Their was a significant momentum behind Labour in 1997 which pushed the yes campaign to victory.
In the 1997 general election 54.7% of the Welsh vote went to Labour, compared to Plaids 14% for Plaid. Can you explain to me how with these figures in mind it was not Labour voters that carried the yes vote.
You may not like it but their would be no Assembly without Labour and its voters.
If Labour had campaigned No in seats in the South Wales Valleys for certain the Yes victories in Blaenau Gwent and Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney the yes campaign would have lost.
Meic is in danger of falling into two traps here.
One is divorcing the question of greater Welsh democracy (i.e. more powers) from what those powers can achieve. The Assembly Govt is currently unable to respond substantially to the credit crunch and economic recession because it just doesn’t have the powers. If it had the power to make a more decisive intervention then I think people would look to Cardiff and not London for answers to the economic situation.
Say, for example, the WAG was able to introduce a Living Wage of £7 an hour for public sector workers and public sector contractors, this would raise thousands of households’ living standards – a practical step backed by 31 AMs currently and way beyond the UK Govt’s 2.5% cut in VAT.
Secondly, Labour has indeed introduced many devolutionary reforms in Wales and Scotland but it has only done so under pressure from others, whether party political or extra-parliamentary. This political expediency helps explain the vastly differing levels of devolution for Wales, Scotland and the North of Ireland?
That said, there are genuine enthusiasts for devolution within Labour – Meic being one of them!
STOP THE JOB MASSACRE IN SOUTH WALES:
CAMPAIGN LAUNCH & EMERGENCY PUBLIC MEETINGS
The Chartists in South Wales (supporters of the People Before Profit Charter) have put together 2 meetings to organise community campaigns against the job massacres. Many shopstewards, union reps, people facing being made redundant over Xmas, the convenor of UNITE at Hoover, the Vice-Chair of PCS Wales (in personal capacities) will be coming along, but it important that we mobilise the entire community behind the struggle to save South Wales from being once again laid waste by capital red in tooth and claw.
Save Hoover’s Factory in Merthyr:
Wednesday 10 December, 7.30
Glebeland Club (above Belle Vue Pub)
Glebeland Street
MERTHYR
Stop the Jobs Massacre in South Wales:
Thursday 11 December, 7.30 pm
The Royal Hotel
St Mary’s Street
CARDIFF
We have been busy as hell visiting factories & workplaces in South Wales facing closure, we hope we can link up different working class communities under attack.
In Merthyr town centre last weekend, hundreds of people signed petitions, some signing for every member of their family & Merthyr Tydfil FC Supporters Group requesting petitions to take away. A Facebook group against the jobs massacre gained over 2,000 supporters in 3 days.
Over 4,000 jobs have been lost or put under threat in the last 4 weeks. From Hoover in Merthyr to Budelpack in Maesteg to Bosch in Llantrisant to the thousands of uncertain positions in Woolworths, the avalanche of job losses threatens to grow as the recession gets worse.
Without a fightback, not only will these jobs go but it will be easier for the bosses to come back and sack more. Millions of jobs around the country will be under threat. It’s imprtant that when they say “cutback,” we say “fightback!”
We’ve also been around the affected factories trying to arrange delegations. If you know people affected by the job cuts, please get in touch ASAP at theyoungdudes@yahoo.com. Please do your best to come along and let as many people know as possible.
yes craig williams i did campaign for a yes vote in 1997 – i was the secretary of the yes for wales campaign in swansea and as part of the Yes campaign in swansea worked alongside leading welsh labour figures like edwina hart and andrew davies in ensuring 43,000 people in swansea voted for a welsh assembly! And i look forward to working with such people again in the next Yes campaign on further powers for the assembly!
Nowhere do i decry the support of welsh labour voters in helping to secure a yes vote in 97 incidentally – of course they were very important, as too were the votes of lib dem supporters, plaid supporters and those thousands of non aligned electors who also voted ‘yes’.
In 97 literally every vote counted and i do not think it is helpful to try to elevate any bloc of party supporters over another’s or the yes votes of any one part of wales over anothers. Thus in my view the 10,000 yes votes in powys were every bit as important as the 51,000 yes votes in our country’s capital city!
But what cannot also be denied is that in 97 there was regretably a sustained and deliberate campaign from some figures in the welsh labour party – llew smith, ray powell, alan williams and denzil davies – to sabotage welsh devolution at the earliest stage! So called ‘socialists’ who were prepared to link up with the tories (who did so much to blight wales in the 80s and 90s)in order to block any form of devolution for wales.
Thankfully of course the majority of labour voters in wales rejected their views and voted yes. Im confident that they will give similarly short shrift to lord bedwelty at the next referndum!
Leigh you misunderstand the point.
It is not a question of one bloc claiming the credit; it is about learning lessons for any future referendum. If a yes vote is to succeed it will be Labour voters and the Labour Party that have to carry it.
Why you say because of sheer numbers. Valleys votes that were crucial last time especially as places such as Swansea voted yes by such a narrow margin will be crucial again.
That is why Labour ran it’s own Yes campaign last time separate from the Yes campaign you worked on.
The question is can the issue of more powers be made relevant to these people, will they be convinced it will improve their lives and the services they use.
The arguments on these pages have to often focused on decrying anyone who questions the need for more powers. We have seen terms used such as dinosaurs anti Welsh etc. This has to stop and genuine arguments that will bring these people along have to be put forward.
That is if you are interested in winning if you just want to be able to show how terrible that horrible Labour Party is then carry on.
Anonymous – the yes campaign i worked on in 97 was a genuinely broad based campaign involving members of many different political party’s and people of no party affiliations at all. In terms of ‘learning lessons’ well one vital lesson i think we can learn from the 97 campaign is that a similarly broad based yes campaign will be essential if we are to get another yes vote next time.
As regards to securing another yes vote well Labour’s standing in wales has declined markedly since its heydays of 97 yet all the polls show a clear majority for more powers for the assembly. So i do not accept winning the next referendum will be quite so dependent on party alliegances as it was in 97.
But yes you’re right the case for greater powers has to be made – that’s why we need a broad based yes campaign to begin that work!
Dont quite fully understand why you would question my desire to see such a referndum won – perhaps you might care to direct that question to the likes of don touhig and paul murphy?
CARDIFF JOB CUTS MEETING – CHANGE OF VENUE!
Hi everyone,
After agreeing a knocked-down fee for the use of their room next Thursday, The Royal Hotel today told me there had been a double booking and that a Christmas Party was taking place – no doubt they had offered to pay top whack!
Since it has been pointed out that many people will be travelling into the event by car that we should try an alternative venue with parking. Therefore, we’ve moved the event to the STAR Centre on Splott Road. This is easy to get to with good transport links and a car park.
If anyone wants to arrange a lift please get in touch as we can arrange that. Alternatively, if you’re in a position to give anyone a lift, again let me know and we’ll put you in contact with anyone coming from your area.
STOP THE JOBS MASSACRE IN SOUTH WALES!
THURSDAY 11TH DECEMBER @ 7.30pm,
STAR CENTRE,
SPLOTT ROAD,
SPLOTT,
CARDIFF
“The arguments on these pages have to often focused on decrying anyone who questions the need for more powers. We have seen terms used such as dinosaurs anti Welsh etc. This has to stop and genuine arguments that will bring these people along have to be put forward. ”
Bullseye.
You describe 97 as our heyday in Wales Leigh, those who’ve had one or two history lessons (clearly not you) would be able to tell you that we did just as well if not better (hard to compare because there were less seats then) in 1966.
Labour may not be hitting the dizzy heights of 97 and 66 but it would be strange to suggest that we wont be back there at some time soon, we were much less popular in the early-mid 80′s than wwe are now in Wales.