I would personally choose independence over a full parliament but that AGAIN is not what this is about. It is certainly muddying the waters to suggest it is. There will be a great many people, i hope from all parties, that will be involved in the YES campaign that will not favour that, and that is fine because AGAIN (I repeat AGAIN!!!) the campaign is about a referendum on a parliament for Wales not about independence. Given you are clearly a politically minded and clever person I find it a tad odd that you fail to grasp that and insist on focusing on plaid’s constitutional aims, something that is not on the agenda here. I only continue to refer to David Davies as the many charges you level at Bethan are the same claims that Davies makes which have nothing to do with the referendum.

You say Plaid would have had a field day if a Labour AM would have supported her campaign and I have two issues with that sentence. Firstly in principal all Labour AM’s have already supported the campaign with their support for the campaigning of a succesful referendum through signing the One Wales document. Secondly I am sure Bathan would have approched any responses in confidence. It was, you will recall, a Labour insider that leaked the story of their position on this.

Finally any decent points you have made are totally undermined by your last paragraph. This is not a Plaid driven campaign. bethan has stated she didnt intend it to be. She has called for it to be a cross party campaign. Your claims it is plaid driven and to link it to independence show little understanding for what is actually happening and only perpetuates the position of True Wales in attempting to make the referendum debate about something, someone and some political ideology that it is not.

Again you mention David Davies, by painting pro-devolutionists from other parties (or none) as such you simply alienate people who your party needs to get a ‘yes’ vote.

If this statement is incorrect, please correct me; “You see the Welsh Parliament as a stage towards independence”, like I said, if I am wrong, then I am all ears.

If this statement is incorrect, please correct me again; “You would vote for independence over a full welsh parliament”.

My point is that Bethan and yourself would choose independence over a full welsh parliament, that is not muddying the debate, that is a reason to not join Bethan’s campaign. Many people do not want their own support for the ‘yes’ campaign to be seen as tacit support for Plaid’s ultimate aim – independence.

There is a large section of the ‘yes’ vote who find independence abhorrent, excuse them while they don’t rush to join a campaign with someone who will be telling all and sundry in 5-10 years time that a full welsh parliament is wrong and more is needed.

Politician’s are the problem, not the solution, they are decent people let down by operating within a dirty game. My issue is not with Bethan’s personal motives, but the fact that all parties will be seeking to gain advantage. Plaid would have had a field day if a Labour AM had supported Bethan’s campaign and could be isolated from his or her MP or party colleague. It then descends into an issue of personalities and political plots.

The biggest weapon True Wales has is that it can pull the card out about politicians – They will continually play on the fact that politicians are not liked, a waste of money, all the same. Never underestimate how this view is common currency with the average punter…

This is all the more reason to get an organic campaign without politicians.

Secondly, Plaid driving this campaign is a real turn off to many – they will see it as a nationalist land grab, which is backed up by my earlier points about independence.

Marcus

I am not trying to paint you as a bogan as your paranoia suggests, but you certainly are trying to make the referendum about somthing it is not. I am sure you are wrong to suggest that Bethan doesn’t believe in a parliament for wales! Thats what the referendum is about. To claim it is about independence muddies the waters of the argument. You are one step away from clamoring aboard David Davies badngwagon.

isn’t “someone involved in civic campaigns”, “getting people engaged”, just what a “politician” needs to be?!

I would hate to have to define the line between the 2…but I definitely think that Bethan’s blog and work straddles this line rather well.

We need people in welsh civic society to improve our democracy, getting people engaged.

You do try, you almost accept that there is credence in my argument, then you cant help but try to paint me as a bogan. Shame.

My point is that there is a split in the yes vote, there is genuine split over destination of where should take this. Bethan is telling people to get behind something that she doesnt she believe in, she believes in at a sideshow, and you cannot argue a stepping stone.

So Bethan’s, and plaid’s support, is not for a welsh parliament, it is to be closer to independence. The all the arguments being rehearsed about the mess of the current situations will go out of the window – when a full welsh parliament becomes and ‘affront to welsh democracy’ in 5 years time if we do get a yes vote.

Plaid are minor players in this, always will be.

As it has been said Plaid Cymru, and I assume Bethan, do have a constitutional ambition to achieve independence. If anyone doesn’t understand that I am shocked. The fact that you would ask that makes me think you are not as politically astute as I give you credit for. Of course plaid does. Having said that this is a referendum about further powers to forge a full lawmaking parliament for Wales. Beating it with an independence scaremongering stick typifies the poor True Wales arguments and doesn’t focus on what this referendum hopes to achieve and what it is in fact about. As much as I am sure you would like to drag this into a debate about independence it really isn’t. Give people the credit they deserve and lets look at what the referendum is actually about, not what True Wales would have you believe it is about.

Also why would Bethan, Plaid or anyone else make a pledge that this is a once in a generation referendum? If the current economic crisis has shown anything it’s that people shouldn’t make commitments that are longsighted without knowing what the situation would be in the future. If the public had an appetite for a further referendum would it be right for anyone to say, “No we can’t have that because 10 years ago we said it was a once in a generation thing!” You’re being quite ridiculous.

So how did you write to the other politicians? Email the journalists to push the story etc…

I have no problem with you doing so, but you would have used the taxpayers money at some point in raising this issue.

I support a full welsh parliament totally and equivocally in line with what Scotland has currently, I support a ‘Yes’ vote to achieve that because that is my personal desire for the future governance of Wales. That is my first choice, it is not Bethan’s or indeed her many cheerleaders on this blogs first choice. It is merely the choice that best suits at the moment, how long before we here the howls of how a full welsh parliament being ‘undemocratic’ for Wales?

That is my point, Bethan doesn’t want the Full Welsh Parliament, she wants independence. As I will ask again – which would you prefer?

There is also a question of legitimacy, how is this referendum presented? As a once in a generation constitutional change? Or merely a vote until the next coalition talks start? I don’t want the constitutional future of Wales decided with politician’s doing deals to either stay in or gain power, that includes all parties.

Does Bethan’s support wane if those who support a Yes vote support it as a one in a generation referendum? I would argue that to win this vote, it must be presented as a vote that will settle the constitution for a generation, not as subject to change at the next election.

All of these comments have shown how unpopular independence is as an idea, and that Plaid need others. The problem is that ‘those others’ see a full welsh parliament as an end game, not a step.

It playground nonsense to wheel out David Davies MP when someone dare challenges further devolution, it merely highlights the division that is attempted by those who do so. So here is my challenge for Bethan and her supporters on here.

1, Will you admit that you would support Independence over a Full Welsh Parliament?

2, Will you be clear that your support of a Full Welsh Parliament is as a step towards independence?

3, Will you not attempt to make political hay from members of other parties who do support a ‘yes’ vote?

4, Will you make a pledge to present this referendum as a ‘one in a generation’ referendum?

Plaid NEED others, so browbeating others will get them nowhere.

Yes let’s forget about the TURNOUT, but in any case, the Richard Commission reported back in the positive for a Scottish style parliament and Labour ignored that and decided to cook up Fudge a la LCO.

And let’s just ignore all the consistent opinion polls since Richard as well shall we? The public support is out there and you know it – Labour are ignoring it.