A discussion on a yes vote
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 at 8:55am
32 responses
Apologies for failing to blog for a while but it has been a hectic week, and sets to look the same way this week also.
If any of you have seen the Western Mail today, you will have seen a piece by Martin Shipton on a letter that he has obtained written by me to all backbench AMs, MPs and our MEPs about setting up a cross party discussion on a yes vote on a referendum on a parliament for Wales, in preparation for the culmination of the work of the National Convention.
This letter is not an effort to set up a campaign at this early stage as Lesley Griffiths rightly points out in the article, but to get an idea of what other politicians are thinking, and to encourage like minded representatives to start a debate on a yes vote. We will need to gather much more support from varying organisations and movements before a campaign is launched, but this is a small attempt to try and kick start the discussion.
I hope to see who replies, what they will say, and then look to having a meeting early on in 2009. This can then shape the way for people to gather grassroots support for any yes campaign movement- to encourage the Welsh public to vote in favour of more powers for the National Assembly. I don’t think that we can afford to wait for the culmination of the National Convention to initiate this type of discussion. All those in favour of increased powers for the National Assembly will have to be ready at that point onwards to make the case for a referendum, and for a successful outcome. The no campaign has already started, and I’ll be damned if I let them set the political agenda in Wales.
No, I wasn’t part of the 79 referendum, and I played a small part in the successful 97 referendum for the creation of the Assembly, but I don’t think that this takes away from my determination to be pro-active, and my effort to try and create a consensus around this issue given that it is a key One Wales commitment. I hope that politicians will dignify me with a response- whether it is negative or positive, so that we can move this agenda forward.
Feel free to continue the discussion on the blogosphere….
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=40044911971
Regardless of when the politicians feel the time is right (and they’d better get a wriggle on), we’re pushing ahead anyway.
Definitely- the more people who are working on this the better.
Good grief – your sense of priorities are absolutely laughable.
At the same time you lot are reneging on promises for what to do with the current powers, you are planning for how to get more powers to be equally incompetent with.
While the downturn is hoovering up jobs all you are concerned about is hoovering up yet more power, prestige and expenses to massage your already over inflated egos…
Cymru Gyntaf/Wales First have already got 1,647 names in favour of a yes vote. It is an excelent base to start from and the sooner the better.
This will only work if you ignore the so-called National Convention talking shop and get on with the job. If it is to be an annex to that convention then it is not worth the paper it is written on.
Bethan you claim that:
“This letter is not an effort to set up a campaign at this early stage” yet in your letter you clearly state that you want to ‘lay the groundwork’ for delivering a yes vote. When is a campaign not a campaign Bethan?
I cant believe that you have been mandated by your party’s leadership (and I dont believe you’ve done this without their blessing) to go ahead and start the yes campaign wihtout waiting for the convention to come to its final conclusions. Whats the point in the expense of the convention if you dont even wait to hear what it has to say?
But why would we want to ignore the convention Peter? Why can’t both happen?
It is not a campaign yet- it is to gauge opinion of politicians and to set the groundwork for a future campaign, Blod.
Because the convention is a distraction and a talking shop. We need a campaign and we cannot wait for the convention before we get it underway.
Bethan lets just hope that your rather childish attempts to out Labour politicians who are not on side over more powers does not backfire.
Your decision to go against the consensus between Labour and Plaid not to pre-empt the convention smacks of student politics. I do not want to hear semantics about how that is not what you were doing as the Western Mail is certainly taking it that way.
You may well have alienated individuals whose support you will desperately need.
The last referendum was very close and the next one will be too and like the last one it will not be won simply by doing what the Americans call firming up your base. Never mind I am sure you and your office are patting yourselves on the back congratulating yourselves for your clever ruse.
Go for it Bethan – we need to enthuse people that we can run our own country, that we can make decisions locally that are better than those made in London. The pathetic current legal arrangements are already falling apart quicker than the Welsh Labour Party, so it’s even more reason to press ahead.
This can work in tandem with the convention and with Wales First – we need to get momentum going. The convention needs to hear that there is clear support in its public meetings next year.
Bethan,
I’m not sure why you need to gauge opinion its clear where you and most others stand.this convention has nowhere near the same weight as that which led to Labour’s pledge for a scottish parliament. It seems to me its just there to add legitimacy to a policy that has already been decided upon. Its a shame.
Bethan, you are right to try and get the ball rolling with the AMs – but this MUST NOT become a Plaid led campaign, as it will just alienate the middle ground Labourites who need to be on board. Good luck
Bethan,
One doth protest too much!
Of course it is a Yes campaign, with a bit of party political tactics thrown in. You want politicians from Labour and the Conservatives to state their personal preference for a ‘yes’ vote and then try to isolate them against others within the party who don’t. How many times have we heard Nick Bourne being attacked for being at odds with some in his party over further devolution?
If you really want to have a debate, I call on you to gather support for independence, your constitutional goal. Your support for a full welsh parliament is not for that you think that is best for Wales, it is because it is a another step towards independence. The question I ask is this – which do you prefer? An independent Wales or a full welsh parliament?
I am sure your objectives are to get the ‘yes’ campaign moving and garner public support – the reason why the response will be muted is because it is a potential bear trap. Imagine the reaction if a Labour, Tory or Lib Dem AM’s view on devolution is in direct opposition to their MP of the same party? Plaid will have knives out, trying to cause division between them.
If it is genuine attempt to ‘gauge’ opinion, well, Peter Black is right, the convention should apparently be the best judge of that. Why spending yet more public money gauging opinion is a worthwhile task is news to me?
First off, I think Bethan’s to be commended as an a Plaid AM for putting her head above the parapet and actually taking a position on this issue.
And secondly, to Marcus Warner, seeing as you see the Convention as a “waste of public money”, maybe you’d be happy to support the recommendations of the Richard Commission, which gauged the opinion of the Welsh public and came back in favour of a Scottish-style Parliament?
How many more times is Labour going to ignore the will of the people?
I think Bethan is right to get the ball rolling! David Davis is campaigning for a “no” vote so why shouldn’t Bethan campaign for a “yes” vote (or gauge support as she puts it). Its about time we heard from politicians on their stance! I for one will be campaiging for a “yes” vote!
jim
How many more times are Labour going to ignore the will of the people
You speak for all of Wales do you, but Labour who consistantly get around 50% of the vote in Wales don’t.
This is going to be a very hard sell and will not be won by the small minority who vote Plaid.
Better hope Bethans games do not backfire.
For the record…
I support the Richard Commission’s findings
I support a full welsh parliament
Glad that is cleared up.
Also…
I dont think the convention is a waste of money, i just dont think more public money (through an AMs work) is worthwhile on top of the commission.
What a joke some of these comments are.
Peter you have been taking every opportunity you can on your blog to slate the One Wales Government for inaction on this issue. Yet now Bethan has shown some initiative and tentitivly got the ball rolling you are equally on the offensive. It just goes to show that you are mearly playing political games! Well done bethan it is great to see that you are making headway. I am glad you have approched it from a position of creating a united YES campaign not lead by Plaid but encompassing all politicians.
Marcus come off it! If you are trying to trick people into thinking this referendum is about independence then you are simply following the lead of David Davies and the True Wales propaganda machine. Although maybe thats the point eh!? Why would Bethan be gauging support for independence when that is not what the referendum is about! Please try and remain in touch with the issues. I am sure Bethan – like Plaid through their constitution – is a supporter of Independence. It is not a dirty word and not one the party is ashamed of. yet this referendum is to do with the establishment of a law making parliament for Wales and that is what is to be debated. To go off on an independence scarmongering approch either shows your ignorance to the dabate, or worse still shows the sort of approch those opposed to a parliament for Wales choose to persue in order to distort the debate.
Well done Bethan. Glad to see some direction given to this issue. Its a shame people like Peter Black have taken a damned if you do and damned if you don’t approch. I for one am pleased that you have shown Plaid are looking to work with people across the board on this.
Marcus what has this referendum got to do with independence?
Marcus- I don’t intend to spend any money on this. Its a forum for politicians to discuss the matter. I’m sure if we had a meeting their own expenses would cover travel costs and such if they were that keen.
Bethan,
I am sure I talk for the whole of Cymru X’s committee and our members, in thanking you for starting the ball rolling.
We look forward to supporting the campaign once it has been created.
Anonynous,
Yes let’s forget about the TURNOUT, but in any case, the Richard Commission reported back in the positive for a Scottish style parliament and Labour ignored that and decided to cook up Fudge a la LCO.
And let’s just ignore all the consistent opinion polls since Richard as well shall we? The public support is out there and you know it – Labour are ignoring it.
My point about independence is clear, although as per usual, clouded reading of it requires yet more explanation.
I support a full welsh parliament totally and equivocally in line with what Scotland has currently, I support a ‘Yes’ vote to achieve that because that is my personal desire for the future governance of Wales. That is my first choice, it is not Bethan’s or indeed her many cheerleaders on this blogs first choice. It is merely the choice that best suits at the moment, how long before we here the howls of how a full welsh parliament being ‘undemocratic’ for Wales?
That is my point, Bethan doesn’t want the Full Welsh Parliament, she wants independence. As I will ask again – which would you prefer?
There is also a question of legitimacy, how is this referendum presented? As a once in a generation constitutional change? Or merely a vote until the next coalition talks start? I don’t want the constitutional future of Wales decided with politician’s doing deals to either stay in or gain power, that includes all parties.
Does Bethan’s support wane if those who support a Yes vote support it as a one in a generation referendum? I would argue that to win this vote, it must be presented as a vote that will settle the constitution for a generation, not as subject to change at the next election.
All of these comments have shown how unpopular independence is as an idea, and that Plaid need others. The problem is that ‘those others’ see a full welsh parliament as an end game, not a step.
It playground nonsense to wheel out David Davies MP when someone dare challenges further devolution, it merely highlights the division that is attempted by those who do so. So here is my challenge for Bethan and her supporters on here.
1, Will you admit that you would support Independence over a Full Welsh Parliament?
2, Will you be clear that your support of a Full Welsh Parliament is as a step towards independence?
3, Will you not attempt to make political hay from members of other parties who do support a ‘yes’ vote?
4, Will you make a pledge to present this referendum as a ‘one in a generation’ referendum?
Plaid NEED others, so browbeating others will get them nowhere.
“Marcus- I don’t intend to spend any money on this.”
So how did you write to the other politicians? Email the journalists to push the story etc…
I have no problem with you doing so, but you would have used the taxpayers money at some point in raising this issue.
Marcus firstly who says Bethan has used taxpayers money for this? It could have been spent by her own pocket or by the party. Suggesting she is using taxpayer’s money is a childish attempt to smear this issue. You say it is poor form to use David Davies to criticise other who challenge Bethan in this but the fact remains you are using a lot of his scare tactics.
As it has been said Plaid Cymru, and I assume Bethan, do have a constitutional ambition to achieve independence. If anyone doesn’t understand that I am shocked. The fact that you would ask that makes me think you are not as politically astute as I give you credit for. Of course plaid does. Having said that this is a referendum about further powers to forge a full lawmaking parliament for Wales. Beating it with an independence scaremongering stick typifies the poor True Wales arguments and doesn’t focus on what this referendum hopes to achieve and what it is in fact about. As much as I am sure you would like to drag this into a debate about independence it really isn’t. Give people the credit they deserve and lets look at what the referendum is actually about, not what True Wales would have you believe it is about.
Also why would Bethan, Plaid or anyone else make a pledge that this is a once in a generation referendum? If the current economic crisis has shown anything it’s that people shouldn’t make commitments that are longsighted without knowing what the situation would be in the future. If the public had an appetite for a further referendum would it be right for anyone to say, “No we can’t have that because 10 years ago we said it was a once in a generation thing!” You’re being quite ridiculous.
Che,
You do try, you almost accept that there is credence in my argument, then you cant help but try to paint me as a bogan. Shame.
My point is that there is a split in the yes vote, there is genuine split over destination of where should take this. Bethan is telling people to get behind something that she doesnt she believe in, she believes in at a sideshow, and you cannot argue a stepping stone.
So Bethan’s, and plaid’s support, is not for a welsh parliament, it is to be closer to independence. The all the arguments being rehearsed about the mess of the current situations will go out of the window – when a full welsh parliament becomes and ‘affront to welsh democracy’ in 5 years time if we do get a yes vote.
Plaid are minor players in this, always will be.
Just to clarify, my own view is we need a civic campaign, not one driven by politicians.
We need people in welsh civic society to improve our democracy, getting people engaged.
Marcus,
isn’t “someone involved in civic campaigns”, “getting people engaged”, just what a “politician” needs to be?!
I would hate to have to define the line between the 2…but I definitely think that Bethan’s blog and work straddles this line rather well.
Marcus I am sure Bethan would welcom such a civic campaign, and through Wales First and tomorrows Wales that has to a certain extent started. But without efforts like Bethan’s it will faile. This needs cross party support and I am glad bethan has called for that.
I am not trying to paint you as a bogan as your paranoia suggests, but you certainly are trying to make the referendum about somthing it is not. I am sure you are wrong to suggest that Bethan doesn’t believe in a parliament for wales! Thats what the referendum is about. To claim it is about independence muddies the waters of the argument. You are one step away from clamoring aboard David Davies badngwagon.
Che,
Again you mention David Davies, by painting pro-devolutionists from other parties (or none) as such you simply alienate people who your party needs to get a ‘yes’ vote.
If this statement is incorrect, please correct me; “You see the Welsh Parliament as a stage towards independence”, like I said, if I am wrong, then I am all ears.
If this statement is incorrect, please correct me again; “You would vote for independence over a full welsh parliament”.
My point is that Bethan and yourself would choose independence over a full welsh parliament, that is not muddying the debate, that is a reason to not join Bethan’s campaign. Many people do not want their own support for the ‘yes’ campaign to be seen as tacit support for Plaid’s ultimate aim – independence.
There is a large section of the ‘yes’ vote who find independence abhorrent, excuse them while they don’t rush to join a campaign with someone who will be telling all and sundry in 5-10 years time that a full welsh parliament is wrong and more is needed.
Politician’s are the problem, not the solution, they are decent people let down by operating within a dirty game. My issue is not with Bethan’s personal motives, but the fact that all parties will be seeking to gain advantage. Plaid would have had a field day if a Labour AM had supported Bethan’s campaign and could be isolated from his or her MP or party colleague. It then descends into an issue of personalities and political plots.
The biggest weapon True Wales has is that it can pull the card out about politicians – They will continually play on the fact that politicians are not liked, a waste of money, all the same. Never underestimate how this view is common currency with the average punter…
This is all the more reason to get an organic campaign without politicians.
Secondly, Plaid driving this campaign is a real turn off to many – they will see it as a nationalist land grab, which is backed up by my earlier points about independence.
Marcus
Marcus firstly Bethan is not trying to lead a campaign but get one started. The campaign she is trying to start is for a yes vote for a Parliament for Wales, nothing more. I am dissapointed that you can not see the difference between supporting a cross party YES camapign and supporting plaid.
I would personally choose independence over a full parliament but that AGAIN is not what this is about. It is certainly muddying the waters to suggest it is. There will be a great many people, i hope from all parties, that will be involved in the YES campaign that will not favour that, and that is fine because AGAIN (I repeat AGAIN!!!) the campaign is about a referendum on a parliament for Wales not about independence. Given you are clearly a politically minded and clever person I find it a tad odd that you fail to grasp that and insist on focusing on plaid’s constitutional aims, something that is not on the agenda here. I only continue to refer to David Davies as the many charges you level at Bethan are the same claims that Davies makes which have nothing to do with the referendum.
You say Plaid would have had a field day if a Labour AM would have supported her campaign and I have two issues with that sentence. Firstly in principal all Labour AM’s have already supported the campaign with their support for the campaigning of a succesful referendum through signing the One Wales document. Secondly I am sure Bathan would have approched any responses in confidence. It was, you will recall, a Labour insider that leaked the story of their position on this.
Finally any decent points you have made are totally undermined by your last paragraph. This is not a Plaid driven campaign. bethan has stated she didnt intend it to be. She has called for it to be a cross party campaign. Your claims it is plaid driven and to link it to independence show little understanding for what is actually happening and only perpetuates the position of True Wales in attempting to make the referendum debate about something, someone and some political ideology that it is not.